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Old 01/04/2002, 10:55 PM   #26
saltshop
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Location: Jackson, MI
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RichardH
I'm flattered that you would assume that a post challenging the mythology of warm water would be mine, but let me assure you that I'm not the only person to question the myth nor do I need to hide behind a nom de plume.

I think it is quite obvious from the nine quoatations that this myth of warm water only exists in your mind and those that follow the liberties that you take with the truth.

I also think it a cheap shot to invoke my name on a forum from which Ron has officially banned me.

True, you make a big enough fool of yourself without my help. Why do you assume I was talking about you anyway, there are lots of Richard's in the world? A little self-important aren't we? Funny you should consider the name Richard being typed a cheap shot, but didn't bother to respond to your tank being referred to as a "toilet" in a forum you have access to?

I have no interest in posting here, but I think it only fair that I have a right to reply to this sort of crap.

And I likewise get tired of responding to the crap you put into peoples heads that is based on nothing, but a failure to accept principles of biogeography that have been around for 60 years.

The poster asked for studies that showed that a hard coral cannot live in 78 degree water.

A study at this point would be similar to someone asking for grant money to show that the earth is round. As Veron put it [i]"It has long been known that latitudinal range is primarily limited by temperature or correlates of temperature"[/b] To take the time and expense to study a concept that has "long been known" would just be a waste of time. Just because you cannot grasp the concept does not mean that some new study must be performed.

You responded that since there's lower diversity in cooler water that it proves that there are corals that cannot live in cooler water. The fact that fewer corals are found in cooler water does not prove that they cannot live there.

I have yet to hear you give an explanation that proves it otherwise. The genetic connectivity is there, the surface vectors are there, the available substrate is there, so what is the magic bullet that keeps 300-400 species out of cooler water in both hemispheres?

There are no indigenous kangaroos outside Australia. Does that prove that they cannot survive anywhere else than Australia? There are many animals that are found in isolation. Isolation is not proof that they cannot survive elsewhere.

I don't think grasping at straws and including terrestrial island biogeography has any bearing on the present discussion and only goes toward showing the desperation of your argument. Corals do not live in isolation and is the basis for surface vicariance and reticulate evolution so to compare the two is well, absurd.

The truth is that there are no studies that have demonstrated the narrow temperature tolerance you suggest. There's no experimental evidence that corals living in 84 degree water will die if placed in 78 degree water. None. So until you produce experimental evidence to the contrary, the only accurate statement that you can make is that fewer hard corals are found in cooler waters. Period.

Evidentally approx. 300-400 species do in fact not settle and live at 78 degrees. Why don't you submit a proposal to the scientific community to get the money to do the study? If there is this myth of warm water out there I am sure the grant money should be easy to come by, especially since it will turn 60 years of thought on its head. I highly doubt that you will ever get experimental evidence that the world is indeed round either so go ahead and live in your fantasy world... I can't really help you.


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Old 01/05/2002, 07:24 AM   #27
jss
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: kirriemuir, scotland
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hi to all,

its been facinating reading the debate over this topic--i.ve found it helpful tho' its been difficult to keep track of the useful points because of the "point scoring" and invective--jeez you guys really go at each other

c'mon lighten up

john


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Old 01/05/2002, 07:38 AM   #28
RichardH
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by saltshop
Quote:
Originally posted by RichardH
[The truth is that there are no studies that have demonstrated the narrow temperature tolerance you suggest. There's no experimental evidence that corals living in 84 degree water will die if placed in 78 degree water. None. So until you produce experimental evidence to the contrary, the only accurate statement that you can make is that fewer hard corals are found in cooler waters. Period.

Evidentally approx. 300-400 species do in fact not settle and live at 78 degrees. Why don't you submit a proposal to the scientific community to get the money to do the study? If there is this myth of warm water out there I am sure the grant money should be easy to come by, especially since it will turn 60 years of thought on its head. I highly doubt that you will ever get experimental evidence that the world is indeed round either so go ahead and live in your fantasy world... I can't really help you.
Then do this. Contact every coral scientist you can find and ask them (as I have) whether any coral will die in 78 degree water. Find an active coral scientist that supports this notion. Since you enjoy quoting Veron, start there. When I suggested that hobbyists believe that corals can't live in 78 degree water, he laughed. In fact every scientist I've spoken with had the same reaction.

The reason you can't find any research proving your point is that all the work has been done at much cooler temperatures. There's plenty of thermal limit research data. It's just not done in water as warm as the coolest reef tanks.

Unfortunately your arguments demonstrate a sad misunderstanding of scientific method. The absence of an organism in a given habitat is not proof that the organism cannot live in that habitat. That has been proved time and time again with the inadvertent transplantation of organisms. Think zebra mussels. Hawaii bans the possession of corals for that very reason. Dr. Bruce Carlson for one believes that Indo-Pacific corals would survive and grow if released in cooler Hawaiian waters. Why not contact him?

Be sure to share with the forum your discussions with the scientists.

Richard Harker


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Old 01/05/2002, 08:19 AM   #29
rshimek
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Posts: 24,539
Ah, yes...

Richard's opinions...

These are the facts of the world by a person who has chosen to be willfully ignorant. Here we have the facts from a person who has no biological backgound, no understanding of animal physiology, an inability to read the literature, and a defined inability to understand either biogeography and, indeed, general biology.

Case closed.


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